The only country worse than America was Turkey...

[Naveed]

National Geographic is a brilliant magazine and establishment, I must start off by saying. They embody the true principles of science, in my opinion, and want nothing more than true rational thought to prevail.

Found here (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060810-evolution.html) is a study about public perception of evolution among 42 Western countries. America ranks #41, with Turkey rounding out the list at #42. Doesn't that stir up patriotism for one's country? The article has a nice little analysis to try and understand this difference, but nonetheless this is a problem.

Not only this, but with news of stem cell researchers going to places like Singapore due to being fed up with the politicalization of scientific studies that could lead to huge breakthroughs in medicine one day. And the American attitude towards turning a blind eye to the inconvenient truth of global warming. I mean, these things exist and America is lagging behind in these certain events.

If you're an American reading this, I'm not attacking you. I'm not putting you down. I'm asking the simple question of: Is America falling behind on the world stage? Are they no longer the frontier for scientific breakthroughs and the discovery of new ideas? Science and technology is, at this time more than ever, the most important thing to be focusing on, and ironically it is also the time where fundamentalist beliefs arise to thawrt this ingenuity.

This is a huge problem, and something absolutely has to be done. Your thoughts?

[CorporateNoun]

The thread title was confusing. Veeery confusing.


On to the topic. I read the article and discovered that there were three snake videos at the bottom of the page, and I tried to make sense of that.

Seriously, that's how much I care about that article. Who cares if you don't accept evolution? People are allowed to believe what they want.

Just because America doesn't accept evolution doesn't mean America is stupid. That study finds that Americans with "anti-abortion, pro-life views associated with the conservative wing of the Republican Party were significantly more likely to reject evolution than people with pro-choice views".

So?

The third conclusion of the study is what semi-caught my eye. It says, pretty much, that Americans who don't know about DNA will often reject evolution.

Does that mean America is full of idiots? No, it means it's full of people that haven't learned it, or just don't care about deoxyribonucleic acid.

All I can say is Who Gives A Rat's Ass. What happens if evolution turns out to be wrong? I'm not saying on any level that it IS wrong, but the point is we don't know for sure. And we never will. Hence, the study is pointless. Who cares. Give it a rest. Naganov, America shouldn't have to do anything.

[Rabid Platypus]

"Who gives a rat's ass"??? That's a pretty ignorant response. Should we not care that bacterias and viruses are constantly evolving? Should we not care that things can actually be learned from looking at how things have evolved in the past? How plants and animals have developed and adapted to survive? Geneticists are currently looking at these things, and trying to 'force' evolution to occur in order to create new breakthroughs in science. But maybe it would be better if we just taught Intelligent Design in all of our schools instead, who really needs science? You know, math and physics are both based a lot on theory too, maybe we should get rid of large chunks of those also? I'm not saying that Darwin was 100% on the money, there are plenty of pieces of the theory of evolution that can be argued, and argued well, but you can't dismiss it as irrelevant. And I'm not even sure what you mean by, 'America shouldn't have to do anything.'

Naveed, with regards to your question on, "Are they no longer the frontier for scientific breakthroughs and the discovery of new ideas?" I certainly hope not, but I have had similar concerns, especially in the realm of stem cell research. In the realm of medical science, this appears to be the next big frontier, and it looks like we are going to fall behind. There are a lot of privately funded scientists working on it in the US, but if more fundamentalists start getting more influence, I can see more and more restrictions being place on researchers. Right now it's just a funding issue, but it won't necessarily stay that way. Is it indicitive of a larger problem with advances in science and technology? I'm not sure; I think my main concern may be the move away from government funding science in general, and the move to corporate funded science strictly for profit. There are several examples of corporations dismantling research projects because the end result wouldn't generate enough money. It's a double edged sword: corporations have more money to fund projects, but they will only fund projects that can make them more money.

But back to the question, which I think is more about the impact of fundamentalists. Yes, I think they are having a negative impact on the country, and yes, I think something has to be done about it. Hopefully things will change before their policies cause permanent damage. There have been several examples of school boards playing with the teaching of evolution, only to have the locals strike back come election time. We'll see if the same thing happens on a larger scale this November, it could give you an idea of the direction we're heading.

Not sure how my first post ended up being about politics and science, it wasn't intentional, but I guess the fact that I just got back into Magic, so I don't have much to contribute yet, could explain it. I will say one thing about cards, the game sure has evolved a lot since I stopped playing back in 1999, I just hope I can adapt to all of the new changes. Oh, wait, maybe I can just pray that I'll do well at the next tournament, rather than do any research. That should get me a win! :p

[CorporateNoun]

"Who gives a rat's ass"??? That's a pretty ignorant response. Should we not care that bacterias and viruses are constantly evolving? Should we not care that things can actually be learned from looking at how things have evolved in the past? How plants and animals have developed and adapted to survive?
I'm not saying you shouldn't, I was just saying that A) It's America's choice to care, and B) I really don't give a rat's ass.

Geneticists are currently looking at these things, and trying to 'force' evolution to occur in order to create new breakthroughs in science. But maybe it would be better if we just taught Intelligent Design in all of our schools instead, who really needs science? You know, math and physics are both based a lot on theory too, maybe we should get rid of large chunks of those also? I'm not saying that Darwin was 100% on the money, there are plenty of pieces of the theory of evolution that can be argued, and argued well, but you can't dismiss it as irrelevant.Uhh...no. I think you kind of blew my post out of proportion there.

And I'm not even sure what you mean by, 'America shouldn't have to do anything.'
I meant America shouldn't have to be dismissed as idiots by the article just because not all americans don't believe in evolution.

Naveed, with regards to your question on, "Are they no longer the frontier for scientific breakthroughs and the discovery of new ideas?" I certainly hope not, but I have had similar concerns, especially in the realm of stem cell research. In the realm of medical science, this appears to be the next big frontier, and it looks like we are going to fall behind.I could have sworn that stem-cells was illegal science to practice...I might have been wrong about that. There are a lot of privately funded scientists working on it in the US, but if more fundamentalists start getting more influence, I can see more and more restrictions being place on researchers. Right now it's just a funding issue, but it won't necessarily stay that way. Is it indicitive of a larger problem with advances in science and technology? I'm not sure; I think my main concern may be the move away from government funding science in general, and the move to corporate funded science strictly for profit. There are several examples of corporations dismantling research projects because the end result wouldn't generate enough money. It's a double edged sword: corporations have more money to fund projects, but they will only fund projects that can make them more money.
I didn't think the article meant that much. Keep in mind they surveyed random citizens. Who knows, maybe they got a bunch of Christians by accident? I don't think that a survey should impede on American scientists and their research.

But back to the question, which I think is more about the impact of fundamentalists. Yes, I think they are having a negative impact on the country, and yes, I think something has to be done about it. Hopefully things will change before their policies cause permanent damage. There have been several examples of school boards playing with the teaching of evolution, only to have the locals strike back come election time. We'll see if the same thing happens on a larger scale this November, it could give you an idea of the direction we're heading.
Again, maybe they nabbed a handful of Christians / fundamentalists for the survey.

On the topic of evolution being taught in schools, I think it should only be taught in PUBLIC schools, so not to cause a mess with the private schools. I personally believe that there is a lot of truth in Darwin's theories, and these truths should be brought to a wider range of people. It's just...don't have a whole class about it. Teach it for a unit in science. What's the big deal? The big Christians shouldn't be problematic about it; just move their children to Christian schools.

I don't even know what I just said. I'm so tired right now.

Not sure how my first post ended up being about politics and science, it wasn't intentional, but I guess the fact that I just got back into Magic, so I don't have much to contribute yet, could explain it. I will say one thing about cards, the game sure has evolved a lot since I stopped playing back in 1999, I just hope I can adapt to all of the new changes. Oh, wait, maybe I can just pray that I'll do well at the next tournament, rather than do any research. That should get me a win! :p
Welcome back to the game! You'll notice we're making our own expansion here at MTGNews, so ya may wanna check it out!

And also, it's good that your first post contributed to a discussion. It seems you got the gist of these forums down.

[MegaMage]

Not only this, but with news of stem cell researchers going to places like Singapore due to being fed up with the politicalization of scientific studies that could lead to huge breakthroughs in medicine one day. And the American attitude towards turning a blind eye to the inconvenient truth of global warming. I mean, these things exist and America is lagging behind in these certain events.

If you're an American reading this, I'm not attacking you. I'm not putting you down. I'm asking the simple question of: Is America falling behind on the world stage? Are they no longer the frontier for scientific breakthroughs and the discovery of new ideas? Science and technology is, at this time more than ever, the most important thing to be focusing on, and ironically it is also the time where fundamentalist beliefs arise to thawrt this ingenuity.

Nowadays intellectual property rights are the most valued. But America is falling behind for good reason. These other countries (mostly located in the asian pacific areas and Africa) have little to no pollution controls or health controls and that makes it so much easier to do research. Imagine if the US did not have the EPA and how much more would be produced (along with how many would suffer of course). And sadly we are one of the cleanest production superpowers on Earth (again, asian pacific rim and even the middle east/europe are worse).

Basically once it is tried and true over there it is brought over here and streamlined, mass produced, etc. This has happened with most of our technologies. I mean look at what you are reading this on.

We had our day in the sun, now we have become a lumbering giant and want the little people to do the work. Go go outsourcing.

[Cousin Istvan]

Well I'll say this becuse a lot of people outside and inside the USA don't realize it. The United states' citizens are much much more religous than other modern contries. And religion played a big part in that survey.

USA isn't like France where people just say they're Catholic. Americans say they're some sort of protestant and mean it.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Nowadays intellectual property rights are the most valued. But America is falling behind for good reason. These other countries (mostly located in the asian pacific areas and Africa) have little to no pollution controls or health controls and that makes it so much easier to do research. Imagine if the US did not have the EPA and how much more would be produced (along with how many would suffer of course). And sadly we are one of the cleanest production superpowers on Earth (again, asian pacific rim and even the middle east/europe are worse).

Basically once it is tried and true over there it is brought over here and streamlined, mass produced, etc. This has happened with most of our technologies. I mean look at what you are reading this on.Actually, almost every statement you make here is wrong.

For one, you confuse research and production. It is true that many things are produced abroad, but they're usually designed and perfected here first: you got it precisely backwards. Moreover, we have (almost without exception) the worst polution standards of any developed country. The whole European Union has adopted standards that greatly exceed our own on almost all types of product contaminents, and their pollutions standards have lower limits. Australia's medical deviced standards are used as benchmarks by many countries because they consider our FDA protections inadequate. Japan has had many tighter pollution controls for decades. Yes, none of these places are growing new manufacturing jobs, but that's not the end of us.

Manufacturing is much different than research, and research is expensive no matter where you go, so companies locate R&D wherever they can find the most capable minds. I unhumbly assert that the US attracts some of the top minds on earth.

It is true that the majority of North Americans are ignorant, but that's true anywhere. We will continue to have the world's best R&D as long as we continue to attract competant students (not enough US citizens go into science, but our insitutions are still top-notch). It may be that most people are dull about evolution, but as long as they don't hurt the sharp knives, our drawers are still well-stocked. If anything, it's more concerning that the best and the brightest foriegners who study here are returning home. This reflects a slight evening of economic opportunity, and if it continues it will shake our R&D dominance.

But Naveed touched on something that's enormously alarming. At the end of the day, public policy is not set by our superb scientists, it's set by the majority. This causes problems because a small amount of disinformation renders most Yankees incapable of reaching scientifically valid conclusions about wieghty topics. I'm certain that the US has a similarly misguided majority that thinks global warming is a hoax. This has grave consequences for all of us. Creationism is just one symptom of our anti-scientific disease.

[Highroller]

But Naveed touched on something that's enormously alarming. At the end of the day, public policy is not set by our superb scientists, it's set by the majority. This causes problems because a small amount of disinformation renders most Yankees incapable of reaching scientifically valid conclusions about wieghty topics. I'm certain that the US has a similarly misguided majority that thinks global warming is a hoax. This has grave consequences for all of us. Creationism is just one symptom of our anti-scientific disease.

I'm interested in this part of your post particularly. Can you give some other examples other than Creationism?

[Rabid Platypus]

Uhh...no. I think you kind of blew my post out of proportion there.

I was just trying to illustrate that there are practical uses for the theory of evolution in science, that it should be taught in schools, and that one should give a rat's ass, especially if they are trying to remove it from the curriculum, and replace it with this 'intelligent' design nonsense.

I could have sworn that stem-cells was illegal science to practice...I might have been wrong about that.

Actually it's quite legal to do research on stem cells, it's just that the American government won't pay for it, UNLESS you use cells from a small line of approved cells. It's complicated, and pretty much a bunch of rubbish. It was the current administration's attempt at making everybody happy, but is a pile of crap that only works in theory, but not application.

On the topic of evolution being taught in schools, I think it should only be taught in PUBLIC schools, so not to cause a mess with the private schools. I personally believe that there is a lot of truth in Darwin's theories, and these truths should be brought to a wider range of people. It's just...don't have a whole class about it. Teach it for a unit in science. What's the big deal? The big Christians shouldn't be problematic about it; just move their children to Christian schools.

That's pretty much how it is now. It's not taught as a separate class, it's just taught as part of the general science curriculum, which is how it should be done. It's the fact that they are trying to remove it that is the problem. Currently the private schools can teach whatever the hell they want, and I'm not going to argue for a change in that realm. If they want to teach kids that polar bears will break down their door and eat them if they upset the Lord, that's fine by me. And if you want to send your kid to a private school, and you understand that they are going to teach them nonsense, that's fine too.

Welcome back to the game! You'll notice we're making our own expansion here at MTGNews, so ya may wanna check it out!

And also, it's good that your first post contributed to a discussion. It seems you got the gist of these forums down.

Thanks! I'm enjoying the game again (though my wife hasn't been as happy about my relapse :p ), and MTGNews seems like a great place to jump back in to learn what's what in MTG. The forums have a lot of variety, and they actually care about the content of the boards.

[MegaMage]

Actually, almost every statement you make here is wrong.

For one, you confuse research and production.
I know the difference, but research precede production. No?
It is true that many things are produced abroad, but they're usually designed and perfected here first: you got it precisely backwards.
In the world of medicine and large scale production yes. However most of the things we use in everyday life were not even started here, think of it next time you see an ottomobile. Moreover, we have (almost without exception) the worst polution standards of any developed country. The whole European Union has adopted standards that greatly exceed our own on almost all types of product contaminents, and their pollutions standards have lower limits. Australia's medical deviced standards are used as benchmarks by many countries because they consider our FDA protections inadequate. Japan has had many tighter pollution controls for decades. Yes, none of these places are growing new manufacturing jobs, but that's not the end of us.
I did not list specific countries for a reason. The EU does not cover all of europe, let alone have a standalone agency dedicated to evironmental protection. Most of the EU's laws are most powerful on paper because of the problems enforcing over international borders. Japanese pollution controls monitor different things, that's why many JDM honda fanatics are angry when they cannot pass a smog test (Japanese motors do not have to be tested for NOx which is a main contributor to pollution). Our FDA is mostly a joke, not really surprised.

Manufacturing is much different than research, and research is expensive no matter where you go, so companies locate R&D wherever they can find the most capable minds. I unhumbly assert that the US attracts some of the top minds on earth.
I do highly disagree here. Research is expensive no matter where one goes. However, it is less expensive in regions that do not limit environmental pollutants or have labor laws. Thankfully outsourcing intelligence and intellectual property rights to different lands where research is cheaper also tends to follow production because it will also be cheaper. And the U.S. attracts most everyone, it is just the business that disregards them.

It is true that the majority of North Americans are ignorant, but that's true anywhere. We will continue to have the world's best R&D as long as we continue to attract competant students (not enough US citizens go into science, but our insitutions are still top-notch). It may be that most people are dull about evolution, but as long as they don't hurt the sharp knives, our drawers are still well-stocked. If anything, it's more concerning that the best and the brightest foriegners who study here are returning home. This reflects a slight evening of economic opportunity, and if it continues it will shake our R&D dominance.
I believe it has already been done.

[Einsteinmonkey]

I'm interested in this part of your post particularly. Can you give some other examples other than Creationism?
While not exactly "hard science", basic economic theory is lost on the populace. This leads to ridiculous restrictions and harmful policies rooted in ignorance. Although economics is not quite like Chemistry and Physics, some basic tenets are well understood. The lack of even a basic understanding among the general public has had unfortunate consequences, policies and the like which are still in effect today.

A simplified worldview which comes from vaguely understood (and more likely misunderstood) ideas can have disastrous effects - the attitude it perpetuates even moreso.

[MD_]

This whole thread was tl;dr

However, it is my duty as an American to inform all of you that America is the greatest, yada yada yada. We are going to continue ignoring problems, and eventually God will take care of them for us. When it comes down to it, I will be an old man before any problem becomes large enough to bother me. And if things ever do get bad, I will move to the Czech Republic or Amsterdam.

Oh beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i54/Sneepur/4thpie.jpg