UBw Mill

[rabbit]

Since people keep jacking my threads *cough*josephhancock*cough*, I'll keep throwing out other ideas to see what can be fed. Here's a UBw mill deck I wanted to try out, but have been a little hesitant to build.

Deck
Lands : 24 4 Arcane Sanctum 1 Glacial Fortress 1 Plains 10 Island 8 Swamp Creatures : 8 4 Hedron Crab 4 Nemesis of Reason	Other Spells : 28 4 Path to Exile 4 Doom Blade 4 Negate 4 Howling Mine 4 Mind Funeral 4 Twincast 2 Traumatize 2 Haunting Echoes 1 Jace Beleren	Sideboard : 15 4 Celestial Purge 4 Essence Scatter 4 Archive Trap 3 Day of Judgement

Lands:

These lands are what I have. I want 24 to fully exploit Hedron Crab and hitting land on T5 is crucial in this deck.

Creatures:

Hedron Crab : I think this is one of the better creature mill cards since Drowner of Secrets in the Millfolk deck. A one drop creature that can start milling right away is pretty darn good.

Nemesis of Reason : I'll want a beater late game to hold up against, and mill even quicker. He's alright and I think he should be full playset.

Other cards for consideration :

Baneslayer Angel : I know she doesn't support the them for a mill deck, but with the limited amount of sweepers I have in the MB maybe running 1 should fit alright in the deck. That's of course with budget limits in consideration.

Nighthawk Vampire : The cheaper version of the angel.

I wouldn't put both cards in my deck, but maybe one of them. So I would lean more towards the angel.

Other Spells:

Path to Exile : This deck will need a lot of removal to keep me from dying before I can mill my opponent. I would willing run a couple of Plains in my library just so I can have access to this card.

Doom Blade : Another removal spell that can take care of a lot of decks. I think the hardest competition would be some Jund decks, but I'll have a sideboard answer for them.

Negate : All the stalling I have in this deck will all play important parts.

Howling Mine : This card has been a pretty big staple in mill decks, and Having a playset in the deck wouldn't hurt. I'm sure that whatever my opponent has I can take care of.

Mind Funeral : I personally love this card. I know a lot of decks that are running a lot of lands, but I also know a lot of decks that are using Harrow and Fetchlands to thin their library. Hopefully this card helps them thin it more.

Twincast : What's worst than getting hit with a Mind Funeral? Getting hit with two at once . Plus this could help against decks that try and run Cruel Ultimatums (Yeah my meta plays them), and Thought Hemorrhages.

Traumatize : I've always liked this card, but I think I'm debating taking this out of the deck for something that could make it a little better.

Haunting Echoes : This could be brutal with the amount of cards I can get to a graveyard by T5. I'm debating dropping Traumatize in order to make this a complete playest.

Jace Beleren : Arguably the best PW out there, for some reason people let him stay on the board, but in this deck I doubt it. I really like him as another Howling Mine type ability coupled with a devestating ability late game.

Sideboard:

Celestial Purge : This card can be sided in for my Doom Blades in the Jund matchups, and any other matchups I may come across.

Essence Scatter : This will come in against most aggro decks. Pretty simple substitution.

Archive Trap : I don't care what any of you say I love this card . If I see a lot of fetches and I notice my opponent is searching library after a PtE; this will slide on in. As for SB if I needed to cut for a better card I think this would be an easy card to slide out.

Day of Judgement : This is another anti-aggro card that I can run in order to deal with Jund/Vamps. Malakir Bloodwitch has nothing on me .

That's the gist of this deck. Again this is mostly budget, but then again this deck isn't ran too often. Hope to see your e-pinions and suggestions. Thanks.

[Noctem]

The obvious one is going to be fetchlands. Interaction with hedron crab is rediculous, and thins the deck (not gonna beat a dead horse, everyone knows what they do). Even with budget, picking up one or two at a time is possible. Also, if you are encoutering any aggro, the wall package would probably be a good addition

[Psychomagus]

Dunno why the Archive Trap is in the sideboard. Isn't your meta fetchland heavy? Also, perhaps Esper Panorama as a budget oriented fetch. I know it's not as good, but it's common,etc or maybe borderposts. Also, any thoughts on Hindering Light?

[rabbit]

Yeah, I think the only way I'm gonna get a fetch is through trading or pulling one. I'm not too worried about it though since this is a budget build and probably won't be played for a while. I just wanted to get some ideas on paper and see what everyones thoughts were.

As for the Wall I wanted to add it, but I was starting to get limited on the slots to take out a card for a playset.

Archive Trap... I'm thinking of going UB and dropping white in order to just run 4 of those of PtE. Liek I said about the wall my slots are tight. I could take out Doom Blade to see how that works.

[Psychomagus]

I like the wall because it basically blocks EVERYTHING, aside from Malakir Bloodwitch and GSS. As for Doom Blade, maybe try Disfigure instead. It can get Lacerator, etc, whereas Doom Blade is dead in that matchup. Not sure if there is much Vampire in your meta though.

[josephhancock]

First, I didn't hijack your thread. Two different goals, two different decks :P

Now, onto this Mill Machine. First, I think white is worth the inclusion, and should be left in the deck. White giving you PtE and Day of Judgement alone is worth the inclusion, and Purge coming in out of the board sweetens the pot. I'd also consider running Necromancer's Covenant as a finisher, which would require white.

Sideboarding the Trap and DoJ are both really bad ideas as well, as they're probably going to be needed if you have any chance of Milling them before they aggro you out. Even if sweeping means losing a Crab or Nemesis, by that point you should be well on your way to winning as is.

I think the Echoes should be promoted to at least three slots, maybe even four if you can swing it. I know, you're only going to ever need one, but you need to make sure that you find one every game, regardless. Traumatize is good times, don't get me wrong, but with all the mill your deck is packing, by the time you hit five mana you should already be in damage control phase, and not even really worrying about milling half of their already depleted decks.

Which brings us to Jace. I would argue Jace's title as the best Planeswalker, as I personally think it's a terrible card, until you build a deck like Mill around it. first off, you need to put seven loyalty tokens on it to have it go off, and at two tokens a turn that's still FIVE turns before it can asplode, assuming of course it's not disrupted. And on top of that, you have to give your opponent's card advantage in the process. The arguement of the "downside" of it's first ability being negated by the fact that you're in a Mill deck is a moot point, since they can always draw into an answer, which isn't going to help you in the least. Bottom line is drawing a card is not the same as milling a card, since what a card does between being drawn and being put into the grave is what matters. And with all the aggro going around, giving them extra cards each turn is actually helping their end game.

That being said, this deck needs Jace, and needs Jace bad. One simply isn't going to cut it, as a full playset is almost a requirement to play this deck. You not only want to be able to drop one turn three every game, you want to have a spare just in case **** goes down.

All in all, i'd suggest the following changes to your deck:

//In//
3x Jace Beleren 3x Day of Judgement 4x Archive trap 1x Haunting Echoes 4x Esper Panorama 3x Plains

//Out//
4x Twincast 4x Negate 2x Traumatize 1x Howling Mine 3x Swamp 4x Island

Here's my list of reasoning and explaination of my choices.

DoJ and Jace i've already touched on. trap has no reason to be in the board, as even if it's hardcasted it's still a 13-for-1 in this deck, which is amazing. Some additional "fetch" lands are good here too, as you want to hit landfall on your Crab as often as you can, though since it's only one card, I don't find it benefitial enough to run additional fetches like Terramorphic Expanse. More Plains are needed as well to hit DoJ with any kind of consistency.

Now, onto what I took out. it's a pretty tight list, so I wanted to make the dek as lean as possible without removing any key components from the main deck strategy (milling). Twincast is a great card, but doesn't do anything on it's own, so I gave it the boot. I know how awesome it is to set off a Trap or Funeral and double the spell, but in reality hitting double blue is not going to be the easiest to do considering a lot fo your spells already have a blue investment to begin with. I'd rather have a card that will do something regardless of what else I have to play that turn, as opposed to a card that needs another good card to resolve before it becomes good.

Negate got the axe just because I think this deck has a lot more useful things to be doing besides sitting back on mana waiting for something clutch to counter. Using it to protect a Crab or Nemesis really ins't the greatest of ideas since the Crab really isn't worth the additional 2 mana investment to keep around, and by the time Nemesis drops, you should be able to win regardless of it connecting or not. I think this would be better suited in the board, and brought in against things that will really give you fits, like Cruel Ultimatum.

Finally, Traumatize got taken out for more Haunting Echoes, since Echoes is superior in this case, and the one Mine due to the fact that I couldn't find anything else I'd want to cut.

All in all, I'd try giving the deck a run like this:

Esper Mill
//Lands (24)// 4 Arcane Sanctum 1 Glacial Fortress 4 Plains 6 Island 5 Swamp 4x Esper Panorama //Creatures (8)// 4 Hedron Crab 4 Nemesis of Reason	//Support (28)// 4 Path to Exile 4 Doom Blade 3 Day of Judgement 3 Howling Mine 4 Mind Funeral 4 Archive Trap 3 Haunting Echoes 4 Jace Beleren

Sideboard is still wide open for exploring, I'd start by adding some Infests, Vedalken Outlanders, and Oblivion Rings, and play around with numbers from there. This would also be a good place to start experimenting with Wall of Denial, since that card pretty much trumps red as a whole.

Hope this helps.

[Forgotten One]

I don't think Nemesis of Reason is really worth the effort to set up. At 5 mana, you are almost always going to be better off casting Traumatize or Haunting Echoes.

As far as Hedron Crab goes, you really need to be running Fetchlands to make it worthwhile, but since you don't have any you may at least want to fit in Terramorphic Expanse and Esper Panorama. Both are $0.15 commons that will make Hedron Crab 1000x better.

Also, Archive Trap belongs in the MD. I also think that running Wall of Denial is a must for a ocntrol deck that doesn't run Day of Judgement, which I'm not sure why its in the SB. I would also strongly advise you run 4x Esper Charm, as its probably the best card advantage spell in the current T2 right now (and don't hesitate to aim it at the opponent to discard 2, but also don't forget that you can make the opponent draw 2 as well).

[Psychomagus]

Originally Posted by Forgotten One

I don't think Nemesis of Reason is really worth the effort to set up. At 5 mana, you are almost always going to be better off casting Traumatize or Haunting Echoes.

As far as Hedron Crab goes, you really need to be running Fetchlands to make it worthwhile, but since you don't have any you may at least want to fit in Terramorphic Expanse and Esper Panorama. Both are $0.15 commons that will make Hedron Crab 1000x better.

Also, Archive Trap belongs in the MD. I also think that running Wall of Denial is a must for a ocntrol deck that doesn't run Day of Judgement, which I'm not sure why its in the SB. I would also strongly advise you run 4x Esper Charm, as its probably the best card advantage spell in the current T2 right now (and don't hesitate to aim it at the opponent to discard 2, but also don't forget that you can make the opponent draw 2 as well).

Hey, yer hijacking my ideas. I suggested the Esper Panorama myself along with moving the Archive Traps to mainboard! How dare you! LOL, jk. But seriously, you really should use these. The thing that will make the Hedron Crab usable is having 2 lands coming into play on the same turn. Not using green for harrow, your budget options come down to Terramorphic or the Panoramas(Esper in this case). On the issue of Nemesis of Reason, I am not a big fan of this creature. Finally, I don't quite get the Day of Judgment in the sideboard. I was under the impression you didn't have these. If you have them at all, they really should be mainboard, but maybe that's just me. There is no reason not to have them mainboard. There is even less of a reason if you reconsider using Nemesis of Reason . That is, assuming you have them .

[AtriumXP]

Originally Posted by Psychomagus

If you have [Day of Judgement] at all, they really should be mainboard, but maybe that's just me. There is no reason not to have them mainboard.

Definitely not just you. :P

However, I kinda like Nemesis of Reason. He's a hell of a nice blocker if necessary, adds to the mill effect, etc.

The card I have more an issue with is the Howling Mines. In my experience, you really do not want to refill your opponent's hand.

I'd also get rid of that lone Glacial Fortress and throw in a Terramorphic Expanse or even a Grixis Panorama (still gets you a Swamp or an Island). Or since you're putting in those Day of Judgement cards mainboard, go for a Bant Panorama (Plains or Island). (And I do think I like Bant the best here, since you have fewer Plains in the deck.)

[Charlo0oki]

Originally Posted by josephhancock

All in all, I'd try giving the deck a run like this:


Sideboard is still wide open for exploring, I'd start by adding some Infests, Vedalken Outlanders, and Oblivion Rings, and play around with numbers from there. This would also be a good place to start experimenting with Wall of Denial, since that card pretty much trumps red as a whole.

Hope this helps.

I like this base, but the deck really seems vulnerable to Enchantments in particular. Luminarch Ascension will get online fast and easy against you and will wreck you. As good as Nemesis's ability is, I would replace them with Walls for a stronger defense. The extra 10 cards milled will be insignificant by the time it starts attacking with all the mill you have in the deck. Haunting Echoes will be much more effective.

Another thing that wasn't mentioned was the synergy between Path to Exile and Archive Trap which is another reason to main deck the Trap.

[Filth]

Originally Posted by Charlo0oki

I like this base, but the deck really seems vulnerable to Enchantments in particular.

This is just one of the reasons why everyone should play 4x Esper Charm - which FO mentioned earlier - in any UBW deck. (This is also an excellent time to point out that you can't use the Charm to make your opponent draw 2. Read the card, FO. )

[Forgotten One]

Originally Posted by Filth

(This is also an excellent time to point out that you can't use the Charm to make your opponent draw 2. Read the card, FO. )

Oops.... I forget that part wasn't targeted. My bad.

Still... 4x Esper Charm is probably a must to get the most out of the deck.

[Pogey]

I, too, had the calling for a UWB mill deck with the release of archive trap, this is the one I've built and been playing around with so far, and it's worked out fairly well:

Deck
Land 4 Sejiri Refuge 4 Jwar Isle Refuge 2 Arcane Sanctum 3 Glacial Fortress 2 Drowned Catacombs 4 Marsh Flats 4 Island 2 Swamp 2 Plains Creatures 4 Hedron Crab 2 Wall of Denial	Etc. 4 Archive Trap 2 Jace Beleren 4 Mind Funeral 2 Esper Charm 3 Doom Blade 4 Path to Exile 4 Day of Judgement 4 Howling Mine	Sideboard: 4 Vampire Hexmage 4 Infest 4 Nemesis of Reason 2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle 1 Doom Blade

The deck has functioned very well against multiple decks, the worst matchup for it seems to be that horrible vampire deck. Hope my build helped out a bit.

[Filth]

Originally Posted by Pogey

The deck has functioned very well against multiple decks, the worst matchup for it seems to be that horrible vampire deck.

If Vampires are causing problems, playing some other removal in place of those Doom Blades might be a good idea. Journey to Nowhere, Oblivion Ring, and Agony Warp are all decent replacements. Doom Blade isn't very good against Jund either (it kills Bloodbraid Elf and nothing else), and playing cards that are better against the best deck in the format can't be a bad idea. I'd play Agony Warp, because it's actually very good against many of the top decks at the moment (Boros, Jund, RDW, Vampires), and some of the matchups where it isn't that good (MWC, Planeswalker/Luminarch Control) should be easy matchups anyway, because mill traditionally beats slow control. Naya Ramp could be a problem, but you can sideboard Deathmarks or something against that.

Graveyard hate from the sideboard is also good against all those Bloodghasts and Hellspark Elementals, so you should add some Relic of Progenitus or Haunting Echoes there.

[Pogey]

I just redid the deck a bit, and I think I've found a much better way to go about it!

Deck
Land (24) 2 Sejiri Refuge 3 Jwar Isle Refuge 3 Arcane Sanctum 3 Glacial Fortress 2 Drowned Catacombs 4 Marsh Flats 3 Island 2 Swamp 2 Plains Creatures (8) 4 Deft Duelist 4 Wall of Denial	Etc. (28) 4 Archive Trap 2 Jace Beleren 4 Mind Funeral 3 Esper Charm 4 Path to Exile 3 Day of Judgement 3 Howling Mine 3 Negate 2 Haunting Echoes	Sideboard: 4 Essence Scatter 4 Celestial Purge 3 Oblivion Ring 3 Deathmark 1 Day of Judgement

I dun remember who, maybe josephhancock, suggested that Deft Duelist's time is now on another thread, but I think that's a fantastic suggestion. Deft Duelist is almost a better, cheaper wall in this deck than Wall of Denial is. It demolishes vampires and bloodbraid elf, and stands on it's own pretty well. The only thing to really watch for is Gatekeeper of Malakir.

By the way, Filth, thanks for the suggestions on Agony Warp and Oblivion Ring. Tried out the warps, and they didn't work so hot, but I think Deft Duelist is a good card in place of them.

I think the scariest thing to see for this deck is Malakir Bloodwitch. So I included Essence Scatter in the board.

Comments? More suggestions?