Circle of Violence: 911 wasnt the First Blood that has been drawn

[Rockavolver]

First of all, I'm European,
and I never meant to take part in political discussions but there are lot of things that people ignore as I can see in all the posts.


Wherever innocent people are killed, there is grief and sorrow

I think everyone condemns mass killing.... BUT

Where were the American people when people died in Nikarawa, Serbia-Bosnia, Palestine and so many other places in the world?

The American Gonvernments (the general american policy if you prefer) takes advantage of the ignorance of the average American. You people seem to be unaware of fundamental truths and facts around the world....

1) the US country has been criticized for their decisions over matters like their war actions (and environmental polution), but the USA ALWAYS ACTS LIKE THEY ARE THE ONES TO DECIDE WHATS RIGHT AND WRONG

2) People die in similar acts around the world every day but NOONE CRIES IF ITS IN A FAR AWAY COUNTRY

3) Freedom, justice and other principles are pursued all over the world and the Americans arent the only ones to respect it (I'm Greek and we created that thing called Democracy)

4) USA should start thinking they aren't alone in this planet and the countries that feel offended CAN AND WILL RETALIATE

5) I hope that after this day, people will start to care about what's going on around them

CONCLUSION: We, small people, make the difference. Let's learn from these acts and push into a direction towards peace independence and liberty. In case you didn't know, USA has acted like a tyrrant lately.(maybe you never knew,but its true)

We, innocent people, will be the ones to suffer

WE SHOULD FIND A WAY TO STOP THE CIRCLE OF BLOOD

P.S. I'd be most glad to talk about abything with anyone, please let's keep it decent and civilized

[LlanowarGeek]

People die in similar acts around the world every day ...

So, you mean, the middle east is losing over 10000+ people every day? ...And these 10000+ people are all unarmed and unsuspecting? ...And over 300 rescue workers per day are presumed dead?

I live across the river and only wish that you could see this with your own eyes.

[kraken]

Iraq suffered a lot more than 10000 deads in the past ten years. Children are dying from starvation only because NATO countries are imposing a blocus on Iraq. European countries are as guilty as USA about this becuase they let the US military forces control Iraq. Anyway this can't excuse what just happened.

Anger is a perfectly normal feeling in this situation but anger won't lead anybody anywhere. Killing more people won't make you feel better.

To Rockavolver I hope you realize that Europe is no better than the US. I am European myself and I know that for a fact.
Exploitation and oppression has to come to an end. It will take a lot more time than bombing every Islamist but it will be more efficient and fair.

[zelda78]

the bottom line is that the USA will return the favor to whoever did it -- when and how I personally don't know

[Daggertooth]

Originally posted by Rockavolver
Where were the American people when people died in Nikarawa, Serbia-Bosnia, Palestine and so many other places in the world?

Let me turn that around. Where were you? Americans have always tried to help the world. Why? Because we are the strongest nation with the most influence. I admit that sometimes we screw up. The foren polocy in the middle east is a outstanding example of our failures in that policy. Don't go declaring us as unfealing by looking at one or even a dosen examples of mistakes. We have had successes and we have done good.

by rockavolver
1) the US country has been criticized for their decisions over matters like their war actions (and environmental polution), but the USA ALWAYS ACTS LIKE THEY ARE THE ONES TO DECIDE WHATS RIGHT AND WRONG

2) People die in similar acts around the world every day but NOONE CRIES IF ITS IN A FAR AWAY COUNTRY

3) Freedom, justice and other principles are pursued all over the world and the Americans arent the only ones to respect it (I'm Greek and we created that thing called Democracy)

4) USA should start thinking they aren't alone in this planet and the countries that feel offended CAN AND WILL RETALIATE

5) I hope that after this day, people will start to care about what's going on around them

1) As the largest influence in Nato we have the main say in whats right and wrong. I do not advocate isolationsim. This is global world with a global economy. It is in the best interests of america and the rest of the world to influence what happens. And as with everything mistakes will happen.

2) We as a people are not unfealing. Do not presume that. We are saddened when someone dies. Many are even against the death penalty. But to cry when a car bomb goes off far away. Well, like I said we are sad, but theres not much we can do.

3)yes but were the largest representative of it. Therefore we try to speak for it.

4)well, Duh! what do you thing we have been doing? Interfearing in other affairs and you don't think we prepare for this kinda thing? We have a whole department funded with billions of dollars dedicated to preventing this kinda thing. They just got through. Our nation, although not expecting, were prepared for an attack. We had contingency plans and everything. Don't even assume that we thought no one would ever dare harm us.

I must admit that we didn't expect a 4 pronged attack that would destroy part of our millitary and paralise our financial market for a week. But who can expect dammage of that magnitude? It was theorised, but the prospect of 4 planes simultaniously being hijaked was laughable. Was.

5) don't you dare think for a minute that america dosn't care about the world. It is because we do care that we have a foren policy to begin with. And it is because of mistakes in our caring that this disastor happened.

Daggertooth

[Rockavolver]

to Geek: Middle East and other parts of the World are losing 10000 people and more but not in one day... They cant afford a war so they made one Big Strike. They die in small numbers every day

to Kraken: I'd never say that,we'd hide behind our thumb. We should be more active. But we can't stand in the way of US.
We are guilty as well, yet we press our gonverments to stay out of major insults to Human Rights. But we aint flawless. We are not the ones to start the problems though, i think

to Daggertooth: We have organised our reactions to all these. Many times we have pressed our gonverments not to participate to war efforts, we have even gone on nationwide strikes. Yet I dont intend to acclaim we're a white lamb. No

Largest country doesnt mean you set the standards for the rest of us. That's the mistake. You see, the people that sacrifice themselves, do it because they feel they've lost their freedom. SOMEONE ELSE DECIDES whats wrong and right.

I hope i'm wrong but average American doesn't know what's going around. I dont know about caring, I never said you are heartless, I say you're misguided.

Allow me to disagree on the motives of the US policy. Cause you defend no principle when you bomb Serbia the night they celebrate the RESSURECTION of Jesus Christ.
ALONG WITH THE BELL TOLLS CAME THE SMART BOMBS.
And Plutonium in those bombs? That certainly doesnt defend anything. IT SERVES THE WAR INDUSTRY, not u and me

I believe that NO COUNTRY that would be #1 in the world with noone daring to face them would defend other countries' rights. No.
You just pursue your own goals.

NO global rights there to defend...........

I sincerely am feeling mournful for the people that died. I even have cousins living in NY.... so dont get me wrong. I say we must try I dont accuse anyone for anything other than ignorance

[rios]

i toatlly agree with rockavolver.
usa always does what IT thinks is right, and theyre popoulous follows blindly.
i guess its perfectly fine that us becomes the cop of the world and just does what it wants to all the other smaller countries? if they do help smaller countries, as some of you have mentioned, then why do they allow turks to pretty much shoot any greek that they see and not do anything? why do they let the balkan countries occupy greece?
you do realize that n america and the middle east and europe have different views on what is right. one super power can not dominate evrything and everyone, and tell everyone what to do and attack countries for doing what they believe is right.why does america always get in the middle?
if you saw a fight on the street, would u go and break it up? or would you walk away and get to safety? i would let the people just beat the life out of each other and care about what happens to me and who im with.if the fight comes to me, then ill fight. i wont go looking for the trouble.

[gweinel]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Daggertooth


Let me turn that around. Where were you? Americans have always tried to help the world. Why? Because we are the strongest nation with the most influence.

Daggertooth [/QUOTE]

Are you sure of that? In my humble opinion you are wrong. American goverments the only thing that want is not to help the world but to help themselves. Do you know that they are responsible for the dictatorship in my country in the years of 1967 through 1974?(i live too in Greece) Do you know how many people tortured and killed because of this? The funny thing is that they did that in many countries. It doesn't seem to me like helping...

Originally posted by Daggertooth



1) As the largest influence in Nato we have the main say in whats right and wrong. I do not advocate isolationsim. This is global world with a global economy. It is in the best interests of america and the rest of the world to influence what happens. And as with everything mistakes will happen.

Daggertooth

Sorry but i dont understand why the best interest of USA means the best interest of the world. You are for youself and your interests, not for the interests of the other countries...

Originally posted by Daggertooth


2) We as a people are not unfealing. Do not presume that. We are saddened when someone dies. Many are even against the death penalty. But to cry when a car bomb goes off far away. Well, like I said we are sad, but theres not much we can do.

Daggertooth

Yes can do more. You are the citizens of the strongest nation. You have democracy. Your public opinion count. Your public opinion stop a war(in Vietnam). You have to think again if it is right to isolate iraq and let die thousand of peoples.

Originally posted by Daggertooth


3)yes but were the largest representative of it. Therefore we try to speak for it.

Daggertooth

You don't want freedom (the goverment i mean) you want to RULE. The people you rule (and that is the greatest part of the world) may not like that (example of establishing some dictatorship around the world in the past decades). This is not freedom...

Originally posted by Daggertooth


4)well, Duh! what do you thing we have been doing? Interfearing in other affairs and you don't think we prepare for this kinda thing? We have a whole department funded with billions of dollars dedicated to preventing this kinda thing. They just got through. Our nation, although not expecting, were prepared for an attack. We had contingency plans and everything. Don't even assume that we thought no one would ever dare harm us.

Daggertooth

I hope you can understand why is not good thing interfering in other country offers.

Originally posted by Daggertooth


5) don't you dare think for a minute that america dosn't care about the world. It is because we do care that we have a foren policy to begin with. And it is because of mistakes in our caring that this disastor happened.

Daggertooth

I want to declare that I hate seeing people getting killed. I was really shocked from the scenes i saw in TV. The only i want is to see to stop the whole killing. Wisdom is the virtue that America must show

[dbuel]

Originally posted by Rockavolver
Where were the American people when people died in Nikarawa, Serbia-Bosnia, Palestine and so many other places in the world?

Personally, I was probably playing Magic. Now, don't blow up my buildings. Any questions?

[Daggertooth]

Originally posted by gweinel
Are you sure of that? In my humble opinion you are wrong. American goverments the only thing that want is not to help the world but to help themselves. Do you know that they are responsible for the dictatorship in my country in the years of 1967 through 1974?(i live too in Greece) Do you know how many people tortured and killed because of this? The funny thing is that they did that in many countries. It doesn't seem to me like helping...

Well, tell me what country does not look at their own affairs first then others later. Our foregn policy has had it's problems. Yes I know, but the intention is usualy good.

by gweinel
Sorry but i dont understand why the best interest of USA means the best interest of the world. You are for youself and your interests, not for the interests of the other countries...

Then let me help you understand. Nato votes on these kind of things. But the USA holds the largest sway in it.

by gweinel
You don't want freedom (the goverment i mean) you want to RULE. The people you rule (and that is the greatest part of the world) may not like that (example of establishing some dictatorship around the world in the past decades). This is not freedom...

In case you forgot we are a Democracy. We don't want to rule! Controll, however, is strongly in the interest of our nation. Those admitedly were mistakes, but those leaders seemed to be good to promote Democracy in the future or at the very least have a pro American Atitude. Yes we screwed up, thats why we arn't the best of friends with south america. But it's better than not.

by gweinel
I hope you can understand why is not good thing interfering in other country offers.

And I hope you understand how increadably dumb that last statement was. Sure it sounds nice. Isolationism has been a pressing issue in the past. even now in the light of what happened, next to those screaming for genecide are those crying out for isolationsism. With the same flawed attitude you just stated. The problem with that is that we live on a planet where it takes only a few days travel to circle it. With everything in the world that close it is stupid not to be involved.

America had an Isolationist attitude before. WWII. Nobody interfeared in hitlers plan untill he became a real threat to the stronger european nations. A bit too late the europeans joined the war but still America had their little Isolationist attitude. If we would have "interfeared" a little earlyer then we may have helped end the war earlyer. Saved some lives. But The idiot isolationists held us back.

Many people would have died in many other instances if we had been isolationists. Like I said, sure our foregn policy has had it's mistakes but at least we have one.


Daggertooth

[Nemesis-Metal-]

any lose if human life is a waste....the WTC was horrible....and it will bother me for a long time...

[gweinel]

Originally posted by Daggertooth


Well, tell me what country does not look at their own affairs first then others later. Our foregn policy has had it's problems. Yes I know, but the intention is usualy good.

Daggertooth

He! Say that the intention is good to the innocent families of the greeks that they got killed and tortured...

QUOTE]Originally posted by Daggertooth


Then let me help you understand. Nato votes on these kind of things. But the USA holds the largest sway in it.

Daggertooth [/QUOTE]

Yes, it is true the thing you say but it is the right thing? Do nato works for the global justice? if yes is a justice that the majority of people in earth agree? i have my doubts...

QUOTE]Originally posted by Daggertooth



In case you forgot we are a Democracy. We don't want to rule! Controll, however, is strongly in the interest of our nation. Those admitedly were mistakes, but those leaders seemed to be good to promote Democracy in the future or at the very least have a pro American Atitude. Yes we screwed up, thats why we arn't the best of friends with south america. But it's better than not.

Daggertooth [/QUOTE]

I think you speak contradictly. What kind of democracy is the one wants to control others. I don't know if you mean " yes we have democracy but we force the counties that we want to be our protectorates". Is this justice? Is this a better world for all the people of the world? You have democracy but you do want to suppress other countries?

QUOTE]Originally posted by Daggertooth



America had an Isolationist attitude before. WWII. Nobody interfeared in hitlers plan untill he became a real threat to the stronger european nations. A bit too late the europeans joined the war but still America had their little Isolationist attitude. If we would have "interfeared" a little earlyer then we may have helped end the war earlyer. Saved some lives. But The idiot isolationists held us back.


Daggertooth [/QUOTE]

Of course i didn't mean that i wanted you to have an isolationist attitude. This would be really a drawback. The thing that i wanted to say is to follow the peace road than the war road. You didn't follow that road(peace) in Korea, in Vietnam, in Nicaragua, in the dictatorships you established all over the war, in the innocent that lost their lives in the bombings in Serbia... isn't enough?




kraken: Unforunately i really agree with you. I am not proud either for the role of E. U. I really hope more people to think to the way you think... but unfortunately i doubt it

[ruham djinn]

rakavolver

the difference with this assault is that it was aimed directly at us. other conflicts you referred to were between others parties and we didn't get involved unless we were asked to or the conflict was too much in one direction.

we need to respond not for revenge but because the terrorists have stated before that they believe we are too weak and not willing to and they will perceive they can do this again with impugnity. while turning the other cheek is noble it is not understood by those of a totally different ethic. the response needs to be hard and relatively swift . and not only those responsible need to be punished but those that stand by and aid them or otherwise support them. kapish.

[Mrhat]

Originally posted by kraken
Iraq suffered a lot more than 10000 deads in the past ten years. Children are dying from starvation only because NATO countries are imposing a blocus on Iraq.

Couldn't help but notice this. Iraq has this upon them because Saddam likes growing Anthrax and Botulism, and likes mixing up Sarin gas, among other things. NATO imposed that for a reason.

Originally posted by Rockavolver
Where were the American people when people died in Nikarawa, Serbia-Bosnia, Palestine and so many other places in the world?

OK, what does this have to do with it? We should get our office buildings attacked killing 10000+ people becasue we didn't get mixed up in other countrys' affairs?

Originally poster by Rockavolver
USA should start thinking they aren't alone in this planet and the countries that feel offended CAN AND WILL RETALIATE

What is there to retaliate against? We try to HELP the world in as many situations as possible.

Originally poster by Rockavolver
We, small people, make the difference. Let's learn from these acts and push into a direction towards peace independence and liberty. In case you didn't know, USA has acted like a tyrrant lately

How has the USA acted like a tyrant?
ty·rant
n.
An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions.
A ruler who exercises power in a harsh, cruel manner.
An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person
Source: http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=tyrant

The USA is an absolute ruler who governs without restrictions?

Originally poster by Rockavolver
People die in similar acts around the world every day but NOONE CRIES IF ITS IN A FAR AWAY COUNTRY

Well.... how much have your, or any of the Greeks been crying about the deaths in any far away countrys?

[Sleeper Agent]

Originally posted by kraken
Iraq suffered a lot more than 10000 deads in the past ten years. Children are dying from starvation only because NATO countries are imposing a blocus on Iraq. European countries are as guilty as USA about this becuase they let the US military forces control Iraq. Anyway this can't excuse what just happened.

Anger is a perfectly normal feeling in this situation but anger won't lead anybody anywhere. Killing more people won't make you feel better.

To Rockavolver I hope you realize that Europe is no better than the US. I am European myself and I know that for a fact.
Exploitation and oppression has to come to an end. It will take a lot more time than bombing every Islamist but it will be more efficient and fair.

For one, llanowargeek asked about 10k people dying a day, not in ten years.

Secondly, and more importantly, I wonder WHY Iraq is having so many problems? Maybe you should ask Saddam. When he goes, things will turn brighter.